Tuesday, May 22, 2012

A Teenagers View on the Asifa ~ By Gavriel Guttman

Gavriel , 3-L
Preface by: Dovid Teitelbaum

Some people think I blog because I’m seeking praise and attention; they obviously don't know me. Others make accusations that I have a personal interest or agenda, I don’t. I started blogging for one reason only- our youth.

I began writing my first blog after a girl told me her story. Her teacher was giving over her views on how the Internet is the yeitzer horo. She raised her hand to challenge this assumption and asked about all the torah websites one can view online. I think we can all agree that that was a legitimate question. But the teachers response was awful. If the teacher would have told her she was wrong, I wouldn't have cared that much. If she would have thrown her out of class for asking the question I wouldn't have started to blog. But this teacher did the worse thing possible. She gave the entire class an assignment because of her question. Whether she meant it or not, she trained those girls to never ask again. Instead she and the rest of the class will keep all their questions inside and when they graduate from school they will throw everything they learned in the garbage.


When someone asked me if I will go the the Asifa, I responded, sure, but only if we put teenagers on the dais as well. Adults should make the rules but only after we listen to what the children have to say. Instead we stifle their opinions and we don't allow them to ask questions. I started a Facebook group where teenagers can express how they feel. I hope for it to be a place where kids can be free to ask questions and not feel intimidated about it. Below is the first of many articles that I hope to post. It was written by one of my campers. A camper who won a middos award this past summer for his excellent character traits. He is 16 years old and lives in Woodmere, NY. He takes a much more positive view on the asifa than I would have, but that isn't the point. It comes from his heart and that's all that matters. We must listen to our teenagers because they will be the future parents, rabbayim and even our future leaders. Its takes a lot of courage these days to speak up and say how you truly feel, especially for a teen. Thank you Gavriel for taking the time and writing for us!


A Teenagers View on the AsifaGuest post: By: Gavriel Guttman

Taking the F train to Mets-Willets Point on Sunday, May 20, was an amazing experience. The subway car was jammed packed with all types of Jews; Chasidish, Yeshivish-Litvish, Modern Orthodox, and of course my friends and I, who are somewhere in between. I’m not a big fan of categorizing people as I believe in the old adage “don’t judge a book by its cover” and that each person is internally different from the next, but nevertheless I see it befitting to at least say the group of people on the train certainly did not conform to one dress code. It was truly an amazing sight. Everybody was happy and casual conversation was taking place amongst everyone on the train. A few people were giving out extra tickets to those that lost theirs or did not purchase one in the first place. Even the non-Jews on the train seemed to sense that there was something exciting about to take place. This “something exciting”, which all of us Jews on that train were attending, was the Internet Asifa at CitiField. My friends and I were not attending the main Asifa rather we had tickets to Arthur Ashe Stadium which is where the people who did not manage to obtain tickets to the sold out Citifield event were going to watch from a live hookup. They even had a few speakers that were scheduled to speak from Arthur Ashe stadium. Needless to say, everyone was excited. I personally had been reluctant to attend the event but after some coercing finally decided to make the trip and participate. As the train pulled into the station and we all hurriedly got off, I couldn’t help but feel excited that so many Jews were gathering together at one time, regardless of the reason. Then, as we walked onto the boardwalk that connects Citfield with Arthur Ashe Stadium, I saw a scene that I will never forget.

Thousands of Jews, dressed mostly in black and white, were crowding to enter both stadiums. There were buses pulling in, whole Yeshivas lining up, and those (like me) who had opted with taking public transportation. It was unbelievable. I had never seen so many Jews at one time before. We were all happy and eagerly walking toward the stadiums and everything was going great. We then arrived at the Stadium, where, after a brief wait and thorough security check, we finally made it inside. Little goodie bags that contained a Danish, bottled water, a cup, and a Tefilah card were handed out and the view from our seats was phenomenal. There were other kids from my Yeshiva who had already arrived at the event and we all greeted each other happily, after which we davened a nicely paced unified Mincha. And then the Asifa began.

The two English speeches that I heard that night were very inspiring and were delivered with amazing expertise. Rabbi Wachsman was especially motivational with the amount of emotion he put into his drasha. The Yiddish speeches did not have much of an impact on me and from the little I understood and the parts that I had translated, these speakers were more opposed to Internet as a concept while Rabbi Wachsman seemed to be saying that it is only bad when used wrongly.

What bothered me was that I had heard nothing about a new approach and innovations for better kosher internet usage. The advertisements had been using slogans like “A Huge Crisis Demands a Huge Solution” and “We can’t live with it and we can’t live without it” and many of us had attended the Asifa expecting the advertised solution. Unfortunately, the only solutions given were filters and complete avoidance of the Internet, with filters being pretty effective but old news and complete avoidance being impractical.

The Asifa was very successful if looked at as a gathering of Jews to hear Mussar, but in terms of guidance and new plans for advancement I believe it was a failure. But maybe I misunderstood the ads and all the hype; maybe the Asifa was meant all along to be a Mussar gathering. But if that is the case, then maybe the money should been spent on providing free filters for those who need it. Who knows? I still think the event was amazing and that everyone should have attended; it was truly an unforgettable experience. I don’t understand why there are those who are “anti-Asifa”. What is there to be against? I see where one can disagree with how the money should be spent but the internet is indeed a precarious issue and hearing mussar and divrei chizuk on the topic certainly Is a nice thing. The implications I got from the Yiddish Droshos upset me a little but not enough to ruin the night and I went home thinking about the amazing mussar shmoozen that I had just heard.

Sure, there probably was a bit too much publicity for a simple gathering for droshos and maybe there should have been more English, but is that enough reason to be against such an historical gathering of our people? I think not. But then again, I am just a lowly teenager and what do I know about the Internet?

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81 comments:

  1. Dovid,

    How many people (boys, girls, husbands, wives, fathers, mothers) have come to you crying bitter tears about the churban the internet has wrecked in their lives?

    RMS and the Skulener have had hundreds if not thousands. How about you?

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  2. Gavriel, Im giving you comment moderation over this post. Just because I let all the haters comment on mine, doesn't mean you have to.

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  3. Haredi, the internet doesnt wreck lives. People making terrible, foolish choices do. Its similar to a car. It can be used for great things and can kill people. Lets start teaching our children to take responsibility for their decisions, difficult as they may be. 

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  4.  Harediandproud: You still don't get it. The Internet has not wrecked a single solitary life.



    Let me repeat that, because you seem to be a little slow: The Internet has NOT wrecked a single solitary life.

    Now that I got that out of the way: it is people THEMSELVES who have
    wrecked lives. A person has the ability to filter what they look at on
    the Internet. If people have impulse-control problems, if people have no
    self-control, or if a person simply wants to do something wrong: IT'S
    THEIR OWN DAMN FAULT! The Internet is simply a tool that can be used for
    bad...OR good! There is PLENTY of good on the Internet, starting with
    R' Dovid's blog. YOUR blog, on the other hand, is pure bigoted drivel.

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  5. Gavriel, this was wonderfully written. To answer your "why anti-asifa" question: The asifa purported to speak for ALL Jews across ALL walks of life. There were sweeping statements made about Yidden who have the internet losing their olam habah, and you can't even walk into a house that has the internet...these statements are not "Chassidishe people who have the internet will...etc."...the asifa claimed to involved ALL the rabbonim and be about "achdus", but it excluded large swaths of Jews and there are plenty of rabbonim who were against it. So the entire premise was a lie.

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  6. Moshe, why does driving a car have to be so regulated. You cannot drive without a permit/license, your car needs to be registered, inspected and insured. There's a million and a half rules and regulations, and they are strictly ENFORCED by the police with fines and penalties, at risk of losing driving privileges (license suspension).

    Now why does this have to be so? Why are they controling who could drive and how? Why can't we make our own decisions and start teaching our children to take responsibility for their decisions, difficult as they may be? 

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  7. He is in Yeshiva Aterest Yaakov. Under the leadership of Rabbi Yaffe, A wonderful Menahal. 

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  8. so if tomorrow, the internet disappeared, and yet the problems in the community remained (for they were there before) what or who will you blame?

    i saw a vid where one of the attendees says because he has no internet in his home, he has to go to the library. do you or he know that there is no filtering on any library computer?

    thousands of families have been destroyed? well thousands of children have been destroyed as the result of abuse that has occurred in homes and yeshivas and i have spoken to many of those children...will you support an asifa dealing with that issue?  

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  9. Sdei Chemed Rocks !May 22, 2012 at 6:47 PM

    gavriel amazing article...thank you so much for the non biased opinion and for allowing me to see real hope for the coming generations !

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  10. The internet has endangered other people as well. Destruction of families, classes (1 kid exposing others to the filth), onlines predators etc etc

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  11.   Thanks for writing, Gavriel. It's good to see an opinion from another teenager, one that isn't so positive or negative. We've been hearing so much about the amazing parts of this asifa in school as well as all the skepticism from people we know or articles online. I feel as if no one will be able to come up with an absolute solution and the internet isn't leaving anyone's lives no matter what the daas torah say; not because we don't respect them but because it's not realistic. Despite the fact that some of our rabbanim are so opposed to it, the reality is that it will soon be impossible to live in this world: make a living, get an education, etc. without being connected to the web.

      I may be wrong as I'm only a teen, so what do I know without having much experience, but I think awareness is the only chance we have of saving our children. Sometimes adults don't give us an opinion (thanks Dovid for being on our side) but in the end, we're the ones raising the next generation, not them. No one is saying the internet and other forms of technology cannot be dangerous, but if we're not telling our children what's out there and if we aren't showing them hands on what the dangers of the internet are, then how are we supposed to protect them from it? Whose going to give them the tools to deal with their potential problems? Especially if we're trying to hide what they are! Was I wrong when I was told that Judaism doesn't shy away from questions? That we're aren't afraid to deal with them head on? So why hide it? 

     

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  12. You seem like such a nice and sweet boy Gavriel. I have a girl that would be a great shiduch for you. Reply to this comment when your ready to date. ;-)

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  13. Well written article Gavriel, you have a wonderful attitude with a love and open mind for all! keep it up 
    :)

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  14.  Would you keep a loaded gun on your kitchen table? It is also only a tool.....

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  15. How does a seatbelt protect others?

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  16.  A wonderful philosiphy, except it's
     
    1) Not the Jewish one. Chazal are full of gedorim and seyogim and have made it CLEAR "ain apitropis learayos"

    2) The Goyim have taken your approach, how's it working out for them? Why are they clamoring for filters etc?

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  17. Stop making a mockery of dating. You don't even know this boy.

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  18.  Secular laws, maybe. Jewish laws are all about our own behavior.

    See 6-hr wait, harchakos, etc. etc.

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  19.  "do you or he know that there is no filtering on any library computer?"

    It's in public, genius.

    "well thousands of children have been destroyed as the result of abuse
    that has occurred in homes and yeshivas and i have spoken to many of
    those children...will you support an asifa dealing with that issue? " 

    One trick pony. Why not. Go ahead arrange it, I'll come. Besides I dispute your claim of thousands that have been affected by abuse. Can you back it up?

    Not to minimize even one neshama hurt in the unfathomable way, but you cannot go around making up false statistics.

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  20. Hello Gavriel,

    If I can, let me invite you to take a look at a post I've written. It may explain why there are so many against the Asifa.

    a href=http://harediandproud.wordpress.com/2012/05/22/the-echo-chamber-that-is-the-internet/>The Echo Chamber That Is The Internet
     

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  21.  You want to say first hand the charbonos of the internet? Check out this site: http://www.guardyoureyes.com/index.php?Itemid=150

    Browse the foums and see the pain of good Jews and what they're going through.

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  22. Hareidi - To make new Gezeirot that bind all we need a sanhedrin which we do not have - indeed chareidim are the ones that refused to join in any attempt to reinstate one. Each community can have its own Rav implement minhagim and takanot but none are binding on the klal. see Hakdamat Rambam to Mishne Torah. 

    Now even when sanhedrin made gezeirot they had to wait and see if the people could live with them and only then did they become binding.

    It would behoove you to check out your sources before you make sweeping statements and distort facts to make an argument.

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  23.  Silly little man. A firearm is something I feel children should learn about. They should learn to respect them and the should learn responsible handling of them. Just as they should learn responsible usage of the internet. You seem to think that regulating/banning/filtering is the solution to everything (as do the gedolim, apparently). It isn't. You cannot teach a love of Torah by teaching hatred and fear of everything else. THAT is the Haredi way. I prefer to teach my children that Torah is the best way of life because it IS the best way of life, better than all the other, "outside" ways of life.

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  24.   YOU'RE THE BEST!  You possess that  rare combination of intellect, critical thinking  and love of your fellow man. 

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  25. Thanks Grandma!!!

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  26. Ill definitely contact you in a few years when I'm ready to date :)

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  27. allow all comments please

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  28. I definitely agree with most of what your saying and that's why I feel that an event similar to what the Asifa was originally advertised to be would have been amazing. It would be fantastic to hear new approaches to dealing with the internet but that's not what happened. Instead we had a very nice get together at which we heard some solid mussar but didnt hear new approaches as to how to deal with the internet. The internet does not only have potential to be just plain "kosher" but can also be a huge tool for advancement in frum Jewish society. The internet is something that needs to be addressed not banned and unfortunately the Asifa did not address that.  

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  29. Something tells me that Dovid Teuitelbaum wrote this article, not Gavriel!!! Anyone else agree?

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  30.  Duck, dodge and insult.

    Again, would you keep a loaded gun, safety off on the kitchen table? Your children know all about guns, would you keep it there or not?

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  31. Definitely not with someone as hateful as you around!

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  32.  "Each community can have its own Rav implement minhagim and takanot"

    Exactly. Haredi rabbis have implemented these takanos for their community. There is no expectation that the MO will follow. Why do you have a problem with that?

    "Now even when sanhedrin made gezeirot they had to wait and see if the
    people could live with them and only then did they become binding."

    A source for that please?


    "It would behoove you to check out your sources before you make sweeping statements and distort facts to make an argument."

    Which argument are you referring to that I distorted?

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  33. If you had read any of Dovid's articles on the Asifa you would have realized that my view on the Asifa is completely different than Dovid's. True, we agree on some points but we also disagree on many. What would make you think that Dovid wrote this article. If you want, give me a call at 3475437186 and i'll prove to you that I exist. Call my yeshiva if you want. From the fact that you made such a comment I think its safe to say that you feel the need to become defensive about something. The question is about what. I didn't say the Asifa was a bad thing nor did I say that it was the best thing to happen to klal yisroel since har sinai. Whats bothering you? 

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  34.  It wouldn't let me "reply" to your more recent message.

    Your loaded-gun scenario is not a good one. My children will learn the proper way to handle a firearm, which would include locking it up safely. If they have access to it (and they will, because I believe knowing how, when, and why to use one is absolutely necessary), they will know how to treat it with respect and what not to do with it. To continue in this vein: my children will also know how to surf the net responsibly. This includes knowing which sites they can go to and what they can look at. IY"H, they will not  be tempted to go to "outside" sites because I, unlike you, will teach my children properly to LOVE Torah and Judaism.

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  35. Since when is the Jewish philosophy not teaching your children how to make responsible decisions so that they can be responsible for themselves? An uneducated person can never understand how to make the correct decisions, and if u teach from love they'll want to be responsible for their actions because they're actions will be correct!

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  36. I think the money could have been spent more wisely on more important causes vs the "feel good gathering" that accomplished nothing. I was also never a big fan of musar, which I felt never really changed my outlook on life. I found that philosophy always had a greater impact on my relationship with G-D and Torah. A gathering of orthodox Jews In Galut, to show the world how many of us exist or how unified we are, is in my opinion not a healthy activity. this is especially true when it is for an agenda that offers no practical solutions. If the "so called leaders" were really serious about this issue, then they would perhaps organize with the current filtering companies in our market place,to present their products and wares in school fairs or at PTA events. The gathering of the chareidim, with the cloud of the cover ups of molestation over their heads, makes this gathering look even more hypocritical and pointless. In spite of my criticism and disagreements on this issue, I am extremely proud of u Gavriel and the way you so eloquently presented your point of view and for standing up for what u believe is right. Your name suits u very well, my Gibor El :).

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  37. Thanks for letting Gavriel do this. I know from my other posts its not easy today, even for an adult to speak up. Im so glad he is coming back for a second summer to camp.

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  38. her you go vosizniesMay 23, 2012 at 1:43 AM

    MESIRAH IN THE COMMUNITY OF PASSAIC, NJ

    In the Orthodox Jewish community of Passaic, New Jersey, (and in other Orthodox communities), certain Jewish women have been utilizing civil courts and restraining orders in violation of halacha,and without obtaining permission from a kosher Bais Din. A number of Jewish husbands Passaic have been jailed, and/or have suffered the loss of their property, and/or are being denied parenting time with their children.

    Coercion against Jewish husbands to obtain Gittin has been reported. As in other Orthodox communities, fraudulent seiruvim (rabbinic court contempt orders) are being relied upon to ban Jewish men from certain shuls.

    It appears that a number of incidents of MESIRAH and GET MEOSO have involved individuals connected with the Ahavas Israel synagogue in Passaic, NJ,whose rabbi is Rabbi Ron Yitzchak Eisenman ( Rabbi Ron Yitzchok Eisenman -Rabbi Ron Eisenman ).

    There have also been reports of incidents of MESIRAH and GET MEOSO involving individuals connected with Congregation Bais Torah U'tifilah ( BTU ) in Passaic, NJ, whose rabbi is Rabbi Menachem Zupnik. It is believed that Rabbi Ron Yitzchak Eisenman has in the past joined forces with Rabbi Menachem Zupnik to assist certain Jewish women who have operated in ARCHAOS in violation of HALACHA.

    The Ahavas Israel synagogue became embroiled in a new controversy when a prominent Brooklyn rabbi protested in a video that a New Jersey "gay" rights law was allegedly signed in the synagogue, which claims to be Orthodox. http://passaicnews.wordpress.com/2009/11/03/video-rabbi-levin-talks-about-gary-schaer-his-pro-homosexuality/At one point in the video Rabbi Ron Yitzchak Eisenman is visible during the signing of the alleged "gay" rights law.

    A website originally at http://www.exposingzupnik.com/discussed various issues with regards to Rabbi Menachem Zupnik. Parts of that website may still be available at http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20090414111920/http://www.exposingzupnik.com/Although we believe that the information on www.exposingzupnik.com was accurate, Mishpat Tsedek is not connected with nor responsible in any way for that website.

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  39. see mamrim 2:5-6

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  40. Gavriel, I was overfilled with pride when I saw your post. I am completely in awe at how well you handle the responses to comments. You are an amazing person and I am so proud of you! 

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  41. Your grandma e-mailed your blog to us and we were just bowled over by your insights on the asifa.  After reading tons of commentaries on the other sites yours was by far the most intelligent, fair minded and thoughtful one that we have come across.  We can see that you have enormous talent and look forward to reading more of your observations in the future.  Good luck Gavriel and have a wonderful summer in camp.  
    From your admiring Uncle Chaim and Tante Gitty 

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  42. The link doesn't work

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  43. http://midnightrabbi1eligoldsmith.wordpress.com/2012/05/20/the-torah-jews-internet-gathering-asifa/#comment-777 i posted this here thanks for the inspiration!

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  44. thanks for the inspiration chazak and good yom tov

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  45. Thanks grandpa!!

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  46. Thank you for spreading it around. I really do appreciate it. Have a good Yom tov!

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  47. I think some of the rabbanim (not all) are afraid of bringing it up. Once we address it, it's there. We all know it's easier to deny it, than say we don't have an absolute solution. In the chasidic world, how should they explain to parents/wives that they are unable to get rid if the problem that they are blaming everything on? It's so much easier to blame things on the Web because it's way out if our control, then to blame it on the people. Men aren't cheating because they have internet access; if they're cheating, it's because they are not loyal people. In the regular orthodox community (at least in most of Brooklyn) internet it's huge and and we are still guilty of making the same mistake of blaming everyone and everything except for ourselves; or we say it doesn't matter what we do as long as we appear to look religious. They say they're bringing awareness to the subject and we all know anyone can be great at giving mussar, but where's the truth? Why can't they bluntly address the real problems? If they never get the guts to, then how are we ever expected to change? Even if we do get rid of internet, (no it will never happen) will that change some men's mentality to stop cheating? Will it stop some teenagers from not wanting to be religious? I may be wrong, but I don't think so.

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  48. Very well pull Gavriel! And your opinion, as well as that of other teenagers, is the most important being that you guys live a reality that is practically dependent on the internet. Whereas us old folks actually remember a time when the internet wasn't around, so it's that much easier to imagine life without it and rally against it...

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  49. I had know idea you were Gavriel's Grandpa. I read you articles in Hakira and really enjoy them. Keep them coming.

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  50. Thanks Naomi. That's why I let Dovid convince me to write the article.

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  51.  Gavriel, you seem like a great kid, but you really shouldn't post your phone number on an internet forum.

    Dovid, you think kids should eb posting their phone number, cell numbers noch dertzu, on the internet? Do you think that's safe?

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  52.  http://harediandproud.wordpress.com/2012/05/22/the-echo-chamber-that-is-the-internet/

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  53.  Dovid, Dovid, I don't hate you at all. What you've done the past month has been terrible and I'm afraid that it would be wrong to let it pass. I've done nothing more than accurately charchterize what you've written, which is mevaze Gedolei Yisroel and insult and denigrate the Charedi Tzibur. I wish you nothing but the best personally, it was your words that took on and will continue to.

    Should you choose to apologize, I would be HAPPY to remove anything negative I wrote about you. I have no interest in a fued or to upset you in any way, but you've farkruchen so far that you fail to realize where you've ended up.

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  54.  Aiseih Tov is not, nor has it ever been enough. There is a need for sur merah.

    The Jewish people never had more love for Hahem thn during Matan Torah. How long did it take for them to do the Egel? No More than forty days.

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  55. You should NOT post your phone number in public on the Internet - very unsafe.

    It should be edited out.

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  56. Sdei chemed camper 2011May 23, 2012 at 1:39 PM

    Great article gavriel!!! Props to you that you took time out of your life to write this amazing article

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  57. Gavriel is able to moderate his own comments and I will leave it up to him. Not sure whats unsafe about it. Here is my cell 917-517-8847

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  58. I think you mean well, but do you realize it takes seconds to get anyone cell phone number today. What can happen if he posts his phone number. Besides anyone can contact him through email or facebook. Ill let Gavriel decide. He has moderation control.

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  59. The intention of the asifa was not to find ways to make the internet safe. It was to set the stage for an outright ban.

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  60. Sdei Chemed CamperMay 23, 2012 at 4:06 PM

    I'm really impressed Gavriel. Beautifully and articulately written, and i think you hit the nail squarely on the head. i really enjoyed your outlook on the asifa and i agree with every word!
    Yehuda Parnes

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  61.  Once again, I agree with most of what you are saying. Way too many things are blamed on the internet. If somebody cheats on his wife using facebook, the problem is the person, not facebook. But there are issues to the internet and the point of filters is to block out as many of the uncontrollable issues as possible. That's why filters are necessary. There are tweaks that could and should be made to filters as some block out too little while some block out too much and that is one of the things that should have been discussed at the Asifa. But a lot of rabbanim go even further than should be done and blame people's faults and decisions on the internet and this is what results in the unwarranted ban in the internet. So yes, I think filters are definitely  necessary  but people also have to take the blame themselves sometimes instead of pushing all the fault onto a machine. 

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  62. Thanks for your support daddy!! And yes, looking back, if the Asifa's original purpose was to gather a lot of Jews for some mussar then yes the money could have been used for better things. But had the organizers stuck to the original plan of a discussion on how to better provide for kosher internet then I think the ,money would have been well spent. Sure, maybe they should have advertised less and invited ALL Jews, but whats done is done and there definitely some positive aspects to this whole thing as highlighted in my article. 

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  63. Why should anyone care about being normal in terms of society. I think its a good thing if you have different outlooks than everyone else; that means that you are actually thinking about things and making an attempt to remove bias.

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  64. Mesivta ateres yaakov

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  65. i think gavriel is stupid and make delicious points:P

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  66. "Now even when sanhedrin made gezeirot they had to wait and see if the people could live with them and only then did they become binding."



    A source for that please?
    ----------------------------------------B"H for the internet! It made finding this possible after googling for just a few minutes.

    http://www.torah.org/learning/rambam/kriatshema/ks4.8.html#

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  67. which public libraries dont have filters? they are all required to!!

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  68. "Now even when sanhedrin made gezeirot they had to wait and see if the people could live with them and only then did they become binding."



    A source for that please?

    B"H foe the internet! I found this right away!


    Rambam, in Hilkhot Mamrim - Perek 2

    "5. If the Beit-Din (Rabbinic Court) saw fit to enact a *gezerah*
    (decree) or a *takkanah* (ordinance) or to establish a *minhag*
    (custom), they must first consider the matter and first ascertain
    if a majority of the community can endure these or if they cannot
    endure them. We never enact a decree on the community unless a
    majority of the community can endure it. [So far, this fits the
    general gist of the statement as recorded in the Bavli -
    pre-facto.]


    "6. If the Beit-Din enacted a gezerah and they imagined that most
    of the community could maintain it - and subsequent to their
    ruling, the people were unsure about it and it didn't spread
    through most of Yisra'el, it is null and void and they may not
    force the people to follow it.

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  69.  That is true, to some extent, but that's part of my point. People who blog tend to gravitate toward each other. They're not neccesarily thinking things through, but rather toeing the "blogline".

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  70. @Gavrielmg 

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  71. DovidTeitelbaum 

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  72. There is a one size fits all solution. The asifa did not intend to provide any solution. It was a muscle flexing exercise at best. At worst, it was a divisive tool against MO Jewry and Zionism.  

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  73. I feel honored to know you Gavriel!! Good stuff!

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  74. Right back at ya!!

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  75. It was certainly advertised as a solution but a solution was not offered. I think saying that the event was organized for the sole purpose of knocking MO is sort of stretching things way too far.

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  76. Rabbi Teitelbaum, please remove this irrelevant and disgusting comment

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  77. Sorry didnt notice it got posted. I dont know about anything he wrote and didnt read it.

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When posting please be careful about Loshon Hara